{"id":31922,"date":"2025-08-25T15:56:31","date_gmt":"2025-08-25T14:56:31","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/?p=31922"},"modified":"2026-03-22T23:52:53","modified_gmt":"2026-03-22T22:52:53","slug":"the-mind-body-problem-conversation-avec-sophie-schwartz","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/?p=31922","title":{"rendered":"The Mind-Body Problem \u2013\u00a0Conversation avec Sophie Schwartz"},"content":{"rendered":"\n        <section class=\"post-infos\">\n            <h2 class=\"post-infos__title\">Infos<\/h2>\n            <div class=\"post-infos__columns\">\n                <div class=\"post-infos__col post-infos__col--left\">\n                    <p class=\"post-infos__year\">2025<\/p>\n                <\/div>\n                <div class=\"post-infos__col post-infos__col--right\"><p>Produced by <a href=\"https:\/\/artasperto.ch\/en\/evenement\/the-mind-body-problem-2\/\">KorSonoR Gen\u00e8ve<\/a><br>Curated by Olivier Kaeser<\/p><\/div>\n            <\/div>\n        <\/section>\n    \n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-vimeo wp-block-embed-vimeo wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"The Mind Body Problem - Robin Meier Wiratunga \/ KorSonoR 2025\" src=\"https:\/\/player.vimeo.com\/video\/1121231628?dnt=1&amp;app_id=122963\" width=\"500\" height=\"281\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"autoplay; fullscreen; picture-in-picture; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p>Biologiste et psychologue de formation, Sophie Schwartz est professeure de neuroscience \u00e0 la facult\u00e9 de m\u00e9decine de l&#8217;universit\u00e9 de Gen\u00e8ve. En utilisant diff\u00e9rentes m\u00e9thodes d&#8217;investigation comme de l&#8217;imagerie c\u00e9r\u00e9brale, son \u00e9quipe de recherche montre que le sommeil et les r\u00eaves agissent sur la consolidation des souvenirs, la r\u00e9gulation des \u00e9motions et la cr\u00e9ativit\u00e9. L&#8217;\u00e9quipe est \u00e9galement fortement engag\u00e9e dans la promotion de la sant\u00e9 et dans la communication scientifique pour le grand public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Le texte ci-dessous est une r\u00e9\u00e9criture d&#8217;une conversation entre <a href=\"https:\/\/neurocenter-unige.ch\/research-groups\/sophie-schwartz\/\">Sophie Schwartz<\/a> et Robin Meier Wiratunga lors du pr\u00e9ambule du <a href=\"https:\/\/artasperto.ch\/edition\/korsonor-2025\/\">festival KorSonoR<\/a> au <a href=\"https:\/\/www.cjbg.ch\">Jardin Botanique de la Ville Gen\u00e8ve<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>RMW: Qu\u2019est-ce la science des r\u00eaves?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SS:&nbsp;<\/strong>Le r\u00eave oppose une forte r\u00e9sistance \u00e0 l\u2019approche scientifique. Comment saisir un r\u00eave, le mesurer, comprendre d\u2019o\u00f9 il vient, ce qu\u2019il est, ce qu\u2019il signifie ? L\u2019objet m\u00eame semble insaisissable. C\u2019est sans doute pour cela que le r\u00eave a longtemps \u00e9t\u00e9 n\u00e9glig\u00e9 par la recherche fondamentale et par les neurosciences. On le rel\u00e9guait au rang de curiosit\u00e9 douteuse, associ\u00e9e \u00e0 des domaines jug\u00e9s \u00ab fumeux \u00bb ou \u00e0 des chercheurs marginaux qu\u2019on ne prenait pas au s\u00e9rieux.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Pourtant, il n\u2019en a pas toujours \u00e9t\u00e9 ainsi. Le r\u00eave a connu des moments d\u2019enthousiasme au sein des communaut\u00e9s philosophiques et scientifiques, en particulier dans le courant du XIXe si\u00e8cle. Il a ensuite \u00e9t\u00e9 presque exclusivement pris en charge par la psychanalyse, dans un contexte th\u00e9rapeutique. Plus r\u00e9cemment, la situation a chang\u00e9, notamment suite \u00e0 la d\u00e9couverte du sommeil paradoxal ou sommeil REM, un stade de sommeil au cours duquel le cerveau est tr\u00e8s actif, et donc en \u00e9tat de cr\u00e9er des r\u00eaves. De plus, gr\u00e2ce \u00e0 de nouveaux outils d\u2019imagerie c\u00e9r\u00e9brale, un regain d\u2019int\u00e9r\u00eat est apparu pour l\u2019\u00e9tude scientifique du r\u00eave \u2014 un mouvement dont j\u2019ai moi-m\u00eame b\u00e9n\u00e9fici\u00e9.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Depuis toujours, les humains ont cherch\u00e9 un sens aux r\u00eaves : pr\u00e9dictions de l\u2019avenir, messages venus des morts, signes \u00e0 interpr\u00e9ter. On pourrait m\u00eame y voir une forme de d\u00e9marche scientifique avant l\u2019heure. Art\u00e9midore de Daldis, par exemple, avait entrepris au IIe si\u00e8cle av. J.-C.&nbsp; de classifier et de r\u00e9pertorier les r\u00eaves selon ce qu\u2019ils pouvaient signifier. Ce besoin d\u2019interpr\u00e9tation est au c\u0153ur de la science elle-m\u00eame : il s\u2019agit toujours de chercher un sens commun dans nos compr\u00e9hensions changeantes du monde.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ce qui m\u2019int\u00e9resse aujourd\u2019hui, c\u2019est de comprendre ce que notre cerveau fabrique quand nous dormons et r\u00eavons. Imaginez : si vous regardez une plante ou un visage, les neurosciences actuelles permettent de d\u00e9coder votre exp\u00e9rience visuelle sur la base des activations de votre cerveau. Le niveau de finesse de ce d\u00e9codage est aujourd\u2019hui impressionnant. Nous avons d\u00e9sormais les cl\u00e9s pour interpr\u00e9ter l\u2019activit\u00e9 neuronale, c\u2019est-\u00e0-dire \u00e0 quelle exp\u00e9rience particuli\u00e8re (sensorielle, \u00e9motionnelle, etc.) elle correspond. Et cela fonctionne aussi avec l\u2019activit\u00e9 c\u00e9r\u00e9brale enregistr\u00e9e pendant le sommeil, dont le d\u00e9codage nous permet d\u2019acc\u00e9der au contenu de certains r\u00eaves.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>RMW:&nbsp;<\/strong>Dans mes recherches<strong>&nbsp;<\/strong>je suis tomb\u00e9 sur les travaux d\u2019une philosophe allemande, Jennifer Windt, qui propose une m\u00e9taphore botanique de la conscience. Elle compare notre esprit \u00e0 un jardin o\u00f9 coexistent des plantes cultiv\u00e9es et des plantes sauvages. Le r\u00eave correspondrait \u00e0 ces plantes sauvages : une pens\u00e9e sauvage. L\u2019\u00e9veil, au contraire, serait la pens\u00e9e cultiv\u00e9e, organis\u00e9e, travaill\u00e9e comme un potager. Bien s\u00fbr, la fronti\u00e8re entre cultiv\u00e9 et sauvage est floue, mais ce qui me para\u00eet essentiel, c\u2019est que pour Windt, l\u2019\u00e9tat premier de la conscience est peut-\u00eatre celui du r\u00eave : un \u00e9tat plus libre, plus sauvage, moins contraint.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dans les r\u00eaves, l\u2019exp\u00e9rience du soi peut \u00eatre radicalement diff\u00e9rente. Parfois, nous n\u2019avons m\u00eame plus de corps : il arrive de r\u00eaver qu\u2019on est r\u00e9duit \u00e0 un simple point perdu dans le vide.&nbsp; Je me demande si les r\u00eaves ne seraient pas un terrain commun entre esp\u00e8ces. C\u2019est peut-\u00eatre dans les r\u00eaves qu\u2019on peut ressentir ce que c\u2019est \u00eatre oiseau. En tout cas, le r\u00eave semble ouvrir tout un \u00e9ventail d\u2019\u00e9tats d\u2019\u00eatre diff\u00e9rents, qui d\u00e9passent largement les cadres habituels de l\u2019exp\u00e9rience consciente.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SS:&nbsp;<\/strong>Mais oui, le r\u00eave nous rappelle qu\u2019il existe une vari\u00e9t\u00e9 d\u2019\u00e9tats de conscience, pendant le sommeil et l\u2019\u00e9veil. D\u2019ailleurs, la conception traditionnelle de notre conscience \u00e9veill\u00e9e est en r\u00e9alit\u00e9 tr\u00e8s r\u00e9ductrice : une vision rationnelle, constructiviste, presque utilitaire. Bien s\u00fbr, nous sommes des \u00eatres rationnels \u2014 c\u2019est m\u00eame une condition de survie. Mais, en parall\u00e8le, notre esprit explore en permanence d\u2019autres \u00e9tats. En particulier, notre cerveau a la capacit\u00e9 de simuler des situations&nbsp;sur la base de nos exp\u00e9riences pass\u00e9es, ce qui nous permet de nous adapter de mani\u00e8re tr\u00e8s&nbsp;efficace&nbsp;aux&nbsp;situations&nbsp;ou probl\u00e9matiques nouvelles que nous rencontrons dans notre vie. Le r\u00eave repr\u00e9sente peut-\u00eatre l\u2019expression la plus extr\u00eame&nbsp;de la puissance cr\u00e9ative de l\u2019esprit (ou du cerveau) humain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>RMW: Quelle est la diff\u00e9rence entre r\u00eave et r\u00e9alit\u00e9?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>SS:&nbsp;<\/strong>Il n\u2019y a rien qui nous parvient de l\u2019ext\u00e9rieur sans passer par le cerveau. C\u2019est lui, l\u2019organe qui traite toutes les informations, qu\u2019elles viennent du monde autour de nous ou de notre propre imagination. Les informations qui proviennent de l\u2019ext\u00e9rieur repr\u00e9sentent une tr\u00e8s petite portion de notre exp\u00e9rience, m\u00eame quand nous sommes \u00e9veill\u00e9s, en comparaison avec tout ce que le cerveau fabrique en permanence. On pourrait presque dire que nous vivons dans un \u00e9tat d\u2019hallucination perp\u00e9tuelle.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>On peut en faire l\u2019exp\u00e9rience tr\u00e8s simplement : si je vous demande maintenant de fermer les yeux, vous aurez beaucoup de mal \u00e0 d\u00e9crire avec pr\u00e9cision ce qui vous entoure. Or, juste avant de fermer vos yeux, vous aviez l\u2019impression de voir l\u2019enti\u00e8ret\u00e9 de cette serre, avec tous ses d\u00e9tails les plus insignifiants. Il s\u2019agit donc plut\u00f4t d\u2019une illusion d\u2019image d\u00e9taill\u00e9e que nous fournit notre cerveau qui comble automatiquement les vides, en bricolant \u00e0 partir de notre exp\u00e9rience pass\u00e9e.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>L\u2019exp\u00e9rience de veille n\u2019est pas fondamentalement diff\u00e9rente de celle du r\u00eave. Ce n\u2019est pas un acc\u00e8s direct et complet \u00e0 une r\u00e9alit\u00e9 ind\u00e9pendante. Non : le cerveau g\u00e9n\u00e8re en permanence les images et sensations auxquelles nous avons acc\u00e8s, qu\u2019il s\u2019agisse du r\u00eave ou de l\u2019\u00e9veil. La diff\u00e9rence n\u2019est qu\u2019une question de degr\u00e9.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dans l&#8217;une de ses tr\u00e8s nombreuses r\u00e9flexions sur le r\u00eave contenues dans ses Cahiers, le po\u00e8te Paul Val\u00e9ry \u00e9crivait : \u00ab La veille est pleine de r\u00eaves \u2014 mais de r\u00eaves born\u00e9s par les sens \u00bb<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-1 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"683\" height=\"1024\" data-id=\"31925\" src=\"https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_16_EBayart_WEB-683x1024.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-31925\" srcset=\"https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_16_EBayart_WEB-683x1024.jpg 683w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_16_EBayart_WEB-450x675.jpg 450w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_16_EBayart_WEB-1280x1920.jpg 1280w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_16_EBayart_WEB-233x350.jpg 233w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_16_EBayart_WEB-768x1152.jpg 768w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_16_EBayart_WEB-1024x1536.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_16_EBayart_WEB-200x300.jpg 200w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_16_EBayart_WEB-600x900.jpg 600w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_16_EBayart_WEB-210x315.jpg 210w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_16_EBayart_WEB.jpg 1353w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 683px) 100vw, 683px\" \/><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Mind Body Problem, Robin Meier Wiratunga<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"683\" height=\"1024\" data-id=\"31924\" src=\"https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_19_EBayart_WEB-683x1024.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-31924\" srcset=\"https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_19_EBayart_WEB-683x1024.jpg 683w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_19_EBayart_WEB-450x674.jpg 450w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_19_EBayart_WEB-234x350.jpg 234w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_19_EBayart_WEB-768x1151.jpg 768w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_19_EBayart_WEB-1025x1536.jpg 1025w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_19_EBayart_WEB-200x300.jpg 200w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_19_EBayart_WEB-600x899.jpg 600w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_19_EBayart_WEB-210x315.jpg 210w, https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/the-mind-body-problem_korsonor_20250824_19_EBayart_WEB.jpg 1279w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 683px) 100vw, 683px\" \/><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Mind Body Problem, Robin Meier Wiratunga<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<figcaption class=\"blocks-gallery-caption wp-element-caption\">Photos: E. Bayar &#8211; KorSonoR<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>R\u00e9\u00e9criture d&#8217;une conversation entre Sophie Schwartz et Robin Meier Wiratunga lors du pr\u00e9ambule du festival KorSonoR au Jardin Botanique de la Ville Gen\u00e8ve.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":31925,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[43,108],"tags":[68],"class_list":["post-31922","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-shows","category-talks","tag-dreams"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.5 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>The Mind-Body Problem \u2013\u00a0Conversation avec Sophie Schwartz - robin meier wiratunga<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/robinmeier.net\/?p=31922\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"The Mind-Body Problem \u2013\u00a0Conversation avec Sophie Schwartz - 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